<paroneayea> ###########################  [11:04]
<paroneayea> MEETING LOGGING BEGINS!
<paroneayea> ###########################
<paroneayea> so, welcome all :)
<paroneayea> http://wiki.mediagoblin.org/Meeting#Next_Meeting
<paroneayea> is the agenda of sorts
<paroneayea> by the way, who's here and watching the meeting?  [11:05]
* joar 
* frewsxcv 
* bcs   [11:06]
* gandaro  
<balleyne> I'm here, though attending to a baby
* AVRS 
* bcs didn't even know you could just do "/me" without text
<paroneayea> :)
* warp  
* paroneayea 
<paroneayea> obviously ;)
<paroneayea> nice!
<paroneayea> so we often start off by talking about the state of the last
             month and what's coming up
* renilgh (:  [11:07]
<paroneayea> so if anyone have thoughts on recent development and how things
             are going, it's a good time to raise it
<paroneayea> I might as well say here in case anyone missed it: I'm
             transitioning out of my job at CC to spend more time on
             mediagoblin
<paroneayea> so things have been a bit slow lately from my end, and that was
             partly because I was preparing for the transition and figuring
             things out  [11:08]
* frewsxcv applauds
<paroneayea> but for the next 2 months I am working part time!
<paroneayea> so my "office hours" are thurs-sat, sometimes sunday
<paroneayea> and after 2 months, I'm not sure, though it's certain to be at
             least that much time or more.
<paroneayea> so anyway :)
<paroneayea> I'm excited about that.
<paroneayea> now I just need to figure out a way to support myself in the
             process ;)
<paroneayea> anyway, we have some stuff on the agenda, anyone want to make
             other comments about recent development stuff before we hit the
             agenda?  reflections, etc?  [11:09]
* paroneayea takes that as a no :)  [11:10]
<paroneayea> h'okay, so I'm just going to ramble through things.  Please,
             please interrupt me if you have any thoughts or things to
             disccuss.  Otherwise I'll be unsure and will just keep rambling
             ahead, and I'd prefer people discuss thing as we go :)
<paroneayea> moving through the agenda line by line...
<paroneayea> so yeah, we've had a ton of wiki spam problems, there's a new
             "goblin army" group that you have to be in in order to make a new
             page (not to edit though)  [11:11]
<paroneayea> if you somehow aren't in that
<paroneayea> PM me and let me know.
<paroneayea> with your username
<paroneayea> I'll be sure to add you post-meeting
<paroneayea> aside from that, the other big announcements are kind of related:
             plugins and theming  [11:12]
<AVRS> http://docs.mediagoblin.org/#part-2-plugin-writer-s-guide is a dead
       link
<paroneayea> derp
<paroneayea> AVRS: http://docs.mediagoblin.org/pluginwriter/foreward.html
             working for me?
<AVRS> oh, no
<paroneayea> http://docs.mediagoblin.org/pluginwriter/quickstart.html
<AVRS> sorry, the page is too short
<paroneayea> ah, yeah it's just linking ot the fragment  [11:13]
<paroneayea> the id on the page
<AVRS> anchors don't work well on short pages
<paroneayea> yeah :)
<gandaro> will the plugin support slow down mediagoblin perceptibly?
<paroneayea> so here's the state of things: will landed the plugin "basics".
             They're pretty basic: you can add plugins and register them.
<paroneayea> and there's a branch that I have to review with the first major
             plugin: flatpages
<paroneayea> gandaro: I don't think so, or at least not yet  [11:14]
<paroneayea> I figure plugins, as they're currently developed, will usually be
             developed pretty close to the core of mediagoblin
<frewsxcv> How many plugins have been developed so far?
<paroneayea> only one :)
<paroneayea> flatpages
<balleyne> are there plans to implement any core features as plugins?
<paroneayea> however I intend to see if I can break out the openstreetmaps
             stuff as a plugin
<paroneayea> yes, the above at least  [11:15]
<paroneayea> maybe other things
<paroneayea> part of the plan is at the moment
<AVRS> ratings?
<AVRS> and similar tagging
<paroneayea> is that will has kind of a list of the "types" of hooks we'll be
             giving to plugin authors, and we'll be implementing them as
             people need them
<AVRS> = metadata
<frewsxcv> Is there a wiki page created for a list of plugins?
<paroneayea> AVRS: yes, both of those would be stellar as plugins
<paroneayea> just this: http://wiki.mediagoblin.org/PluginSystemDesignDocument
                                                                        [11:16]
<paroneayea> it's kind of outdated
<paroneayea> we have some use cases listed on there
<paroneayea> if you have ideas on more, please list them
<paroneayea> and
<paroneayea> if you want to develop a plugin yourself, and want to jump on
             this
<paroneayea> please, please let me know
<paroneayea> I'd like to help anyone who's interested in starting work on this
             get the ball rolling
<paroneayea> anyway... I'm not sure how much more there is to say on plugins
             other than what was just said?  [11:17]
<AVRS> EXIF could be split out?  [11:18]
<paroneayea> hm, exif
<paroneayea> well, the exif display almost certainly
<balleyne> how will plugins be distributed / installed from an end user
           perspective?
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<paroneayea> it might make sense to have the simple "recording" of exif data
             as we have it to the database be just kept as part of the image
             plugin
<paroneayea> balleyne: aha, great question
<paroneayea> so we're planning to use python's packagin
<paroneayea> g
<paroneayea> so python eggs / source dists, etc  [11:19]
<paroneayea> that's how willkg designed this
<balleyne> sweet
<paroneayea> so you can theoretically ./bin/easy_install gmg_supergoblins
<paroneayea> and get the supergoblin extension
<paroneayea> or whatever less lame plugin name :)
<paroneayea> maybe later we'll do something smart by having a plugin listing
             thingy or something built into some future admin something
<paroneayea> for now, just using the python tooling from the command line
                                                                        [11:20]
<paroneayea> oh also
<paroneayea> plugins are configured currently via sections
<paroneayea> it's something like
<paroneayea> [plugins]
<paroneayea> [[mediagoblin.plugins.flatpages]]
<paroneayea> herp = derp
<paroneayea> I think
<paroneayea> and "configuring" a section turns that plugin on.
<paroneayea> anyway, I still need to review willkg's code (and hopefully will
             today)
<paroneayea> anything else on plugins?  [11:21]
<AVRS> it'd be good to disable them temporarily easily
<paroneayea> sure, comment it out ;)
<AVRS> with all the settings?
<paroneayea> yes unfortunately for now.  I don't know of a better way to do it
             considering the setup we have
<AVRS> ok
<paroneayea> thoughts welcome, though I think this is mostly willkg's domain
<paroneayea> and sadly he couldn't make this meeting  [11:22]
<paroneayea> so if that's it(?) I'll move onto theming
<AVRS> [[-mediagoblin.plugins.flatpages]]
<paroneayea> AVRS: oh, interesting idea  [11:23]
<paroneayea> AVRS: could you bring that up with willkg post-meeting?
<AVRS> paroneayea: ok
<AVRS> if I don't forget
<paroneayea> :)
<paroneayea> so, theming!
<paroneayea> as some of you may have seen, I'm working on theming support
<gandaro> in ini files you can just put a semi-colon in front of a line to
          disable it  [11:24]
<gandaro> so:
<gandaro> ; [[mediagoblin.plugins.flatpages]]
<gandaro> ;)
<paroneayea> gandaro: hmmm
<AVRS> gandaro: there are settings in the section
<gandaro> or isn't that ini?
<gandaro> aah
<paroneayea> I'm not sure that works for configfile syntax thoguh
<gandaro> AVRS: I understand now ^^
<paroneayea> for a whole section
<paroneayea> yeah
<paroneayea> so anyway, on theming, I have this joke-theme as a test,
             "goblincities" (think geocities) http://cwebber.pagekite.me/
                                                                        [11:25]
<paroneayea> it's intentionally terrible.
<paroneayea> but anyway, there are two things demonstrated here:
<paroneayea>  - you can override templates in your theme
<paroneayea>  - you can provide your own custom assets (see the rotating gif)
                                                                        [11:26]
<paroneayea> similarly, css files, etc
<paroneayea> so, I'll probably have this wrapped up this weekend or early next
             "work week" (thursday-fridayish next week at worst)
<gandaro> huh
<gandaro> you can save favorites?
<paroneayea> oh  [11:27]
<paroneayea> ha
<paroneayea> that text is wrong
<paroneayea> I wonder when it got added
* paroneayea files a TODO to correct
<paroneayea> filed
<paroneayea> anyway
<paroneayea> my thoughts are two things at the moment:
<paroneayea> 1) we need some people willing to step forward and help to make
             *real themes*  [11:28]
<paroneayea> both because we want them and what's the point of having a
             theming system without them :)
<AVRS> gandaro: where is that mentioned?  [11:29]
<paroneayea> and also because we're going to be making release notes, and I
             really don't want the screenshot to be of the goblincities theme
             :)
<gandaro> AVRS: on the home page of mediagoblin pages
<paroneayea> AVRS: frontpage of mediagoblin instance currently (incorrectly)
             say sit
<paroneayea> I'll fix it
<frewsxcv> paroneayea: I'll make one
<AVRS> ho, in the English version
<paroneayea> frewsxcv: awesome :D
<AVRS> …and Russian too
<paroneayea> so that's 2) if you're interested in working on one, you should
             start talking to me, and I can walk you through the process of
             making one  [11:30]
<gandaro> and German too! ;)
<paroneayea> part of the process of making themes is we'll probably be finding
             out that we'll want to be having more sections of the templates
             be more extensible
<AVRS> Maybe we presumed it to be alpha, being worked on etc.
<paroneayea> and also more things marked up to be css'able
<paroneayea> so if in working on themes you find you need things to be more
             extensible  [11:31]
<paroneayea> just let me know, or even patches welcome :)
<gandaro> should there be a download link even if the license is "All rights
          reserved"?
<paroneayea> frewsxcv: anyway, noted, I'll let you know when the thing gets
             close
<paroneayea> gandaro: I don't see why not
<AVRS> gandaro: personal use, fair use etc
<paroneayea> propreitary doesn't mean "you can't download"
<gandaro> AVRS: fair use? usa-thing  [11:32]
<AVRS> gandaro: and also "other licenses"
<AVRS> gandaro: that's what "All rights reserved" actually means.
<paroneayea> I think the idea that "you can't download" is kind of the new
             "streaming mentality"
<AVRS> (in GMG at least)
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<paroneayea> all rights reserved means it's default copyright status, not that
             we're implementing lockdown support
<gandaro> we could have a checkbox for not allowing the download  [11:33]
<paroneayea> I don't really want to implement that right now
<AVRS> gandaro: "do not store the original file"?
<paroneayea> oh
<paroneayea> as for not storing the original file
<paroneayea> there's some stuff already where you can set those options
<paroneayea> for videos anyway.
<gandaro> "Do not offer download links"
<gandaro> ;)
<AVRS> gandaro: that's silly
<AVRS> gandaro: only makes sense with DRM  [11:34]
<paroneayea> even so, I think giving the impression that the web isn't a
             document store and that things are undownloadable is
             semi-problematic
<gandaro> that would make mediagoblin more mainstream-friendly
<paroneayea> if we want to add "don't show download link" stuff anyway, we
             might be able to do it, but I think that's a tangental
             conversation and is probably worth discussing in a ticket
<paroneayea> and probably needs to be implemented on a per-mediatype level
             anyway.  [11:35]
<AVRS> Implement the download link as a plugin with more features instead? ;)
<jxself> If I may say so, the lack of a download link won't stop people from
         gtting copies of things that they want anyway.
<paroneayea> we can have a ./bin/easy_install ruintheweb plugin later :)
<paroneayea> jxself: yeah
<paroneayea> so, anyway  [11:36]
<paroneayea> moving on!  anything else theme related?
<paroneayea> someone put keyboard shortcuts on the agenda
             http://issues.mediagoblin.org/ticket/346
<paroneayea> was that joar?
<jxself> I imagine I (or someone) will need to develop a GNU theme at some
         point.  [11:37]
<gandaro> I will make the download links consistent
<gandaro> for audio and video …
<paroneayea> jxself: cool, I'll be happy to work and help you with that
<paroneayea> gandaro: yes that's one thing we should do for sure
<paroneayea> make it so they aren't scattered around inconsistently as they
             are now
<paroneayea> same thing with ascii art
<paroneayea> it should really go in the sidebar.
<paroneayea> gandaro: if you want to file a bug for that, it would be great
                                                                        [11:38]
<paroneayea> else I'll do it post-meeting
<AVRS> I don't know anything about screen readers; maybe it's already time to
       test with them
<paroneayea> AVRS: accessibility testing is welcome
<gandaro> I'll do that
<paroneayea> I've thought of reaching out to frostbite / Jonathan Nadeau
<gandaro> wlel  [11:39]
<gandaro> accessibility on a media page?
<jxself> Subtitles, etc.
<paroneayea> since he's nice, likes mediagoblin, uses a screen reader, and is
             working on an accessibility nonprofit
<paroneayea> and also think about audio support and etc
<gandaro> if you want to follow the W3C accessibility guidelines, you would
          need to provide texts for everything: images, music, video …  [11:40]
<paroneayea> yes it'll be a long path forward to reach everything, but we
             should shoot for it
<paroneayea> I think subtitles are a good plugin candidate also
<gandaro> testing it now is probably premature.
<AVRS> gandaro: I mean pay attention
<AVRS> at least check how it works now  [11:41]
<paroneayea> yes, it should be part of our planning to handle accessibility
             even if not our top priority immediately
<AVRS> gandaro: or it might get too stable without accessibility and difficult
       to change  [11:42]
* paroneayea nods
<paroneayea> I've made a note to send frostbite an email and see what he
             thinks  [11:43]
<paroneayea> I think gandaro is right that we probably can't tackle it full-on
             right now, but
<paroneayea> AVRS is also right that we should be planning and attempting to
             slowly address things
<paroneayea> some things are probably not too hard to start tackling!
<AVRS> gandaro: just one article
       http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/07/06/are-web-apps-accessible-enough-to-replace-desktop-applications-any-time-soon/
<paroneayea> okay, hm, so I'm not sure who raised keyboard shortcuts  [11:44]
<paroneayea> and if they have anything else they want to discuss related to
             them.
<paroneayea> I'll take that as a no :)  [11:45]
<jxself> Wiki says added by Joar.
* paroneayea pokes joar
* joar twitches  [11:46]
<paroneayea> :)
<paroneayea> joar: anything else related to keyboard shortcuts before we move
             on?
<joar> said goodbye to the family, they're heading to Denmark :)
<paroneayea> ohh :)
<joar> Keyboard shortcuts would be great. That's all I think.  [11:47]
<paroneayea> ha :D
<paroneayea> well, agreed
<paroneayea> I guess the one thing to say on that front is "anyone want to
             jump on that task?"
<joar> Yeah
<paroneayea> one thing we used to do more of and stopped doing it seems is
             using meetings as a time to delegate tasks  [11:48]
<paroneayea> I wonder if we should return to that somewhat
<paroneayea> or how
<paroneayea> the old "everyone scramble on an etherpad" method seemed to be
             kinda mixed in its success
<paroneayea> and I think people got tired of it
<frewsxcv> In my opinion: They would be great, but are they that demanded?
           Seems like there are bigger fish to fry  [11:49]
<paroneayea> you are right, there are probably bigger fish to fry, but if
             someone really really wants them, they're welcome to tackle it I
             think
<paroneayea> but yeah, there are some higher priority things at the moment
                                                                        [11:50]
<AVRS> prev/next shortcuts
<paroneayea> actually, okay, this lines directly up with the next meeting
             agenda item
<AVRS> or even buttons
<paroneayea> which is on ticketing triaging and assignment
<paroneayea> which I guess leads to a few questions: should we have better
             structure around ticket triaging?  more coordination?  [11:51]
<paroneayea> also
<paroneayea> how about assigning people to tickets and resolving dangling
             things
<paroneayea> are we really doing this the best way?
<paroneayea> what could we do better?
<paroneayea> shawnrisk has very enthusiastically been trying to help people
             find tickets to look at... part of it might just be that it's a
             matter of more energy being spent on tasks  [11:52]
<paroneayea> but maybe we should also be spending more time on organizing our
             milestones and etc?
<paroneayea> maybe no thoughts on that then :)  [11:53]
<AVRS> What does triaging mean here?
<bcs> I think it would be helpful to have more energy going into the project
      before we worry too much about how it gets organized.  [11:54]
<paroneayea> bcs: I think you probably are right
<bcs> I know we've done well with tickets before but with the lull I feel like
      we're not at the point where that's as helpful right now.
<paroneayea> bcs: so maybe we should reframe that and ask what we can do to
             get more energy into the project :)
* bcs says this as someone trying to get back in himself.  Made one commit in
  a branch earlier this week at least.
<paroneayea> aside from me quitting my job ;)  [11:55]
<bcs> One thing I think would help would be a good demonstration site.
<paroneayea> (which I say jokingly and non-jokingly... I think the project
             needs more responsiveness and direction to people trying to help,
             which is one reason I'm making this change)
<paroneayea> yes
<bcs> I know a couple people have tried to run that in the past, but it is
      expensive and creates administrative overhead dealing with people with
      malicious intent.  [11:56]
<AVRS> At Mozilla QA, triaging means mostly moving bugs to the appropriate
       components.  But here, the issue tracker is different and there are no
       tens of components?
<bcs> Maybe the way to go is not to encourage a big fancy site but encourage
      more people to install and run it themselves.
<bcs> Which would be more in keeping with our goals of federation, etc., even
      though we don't have federation working yet.
<paroneayea> bcs: yes... that's also tricky though!  We need to make it easier
             for people to do that
<bcs> Yea.  [11:57]
<paroneayea> but I agree, we should be focusing on that
<paroneayea> oh, I guess we are about to run out of time, so I should say one
             more thing on the building energy side of things
<paroneayea> I'll be at OSCON giving a mediagoblin talk in 2 weeks
<paroneayea> so if anyone else is gonna be at OSCON
<paroneayea> be sure to say hello... I'll be there the whole week :)  [11:58]
<paroneayea> and if you know people going to OSCON, trick them into coming
             hear me ramble :)
<paroneayea> wow what happened to my grammar
* jxself will be at OSCON
<paroneayea> well you know what I mean
<paroneayea> oh sweet
<paroneayea> jxself: look forward to seeing you there :)
<jxself> I'll be staffing the FSF booth so probably won't have time to go to
         any of the talks. :(  [11:59]
<paroneayea> jxself: well I will stop by to chat then at least :)
<jxself> Good good. :)
<paroneayea> so anyway, yeah!  [12:00]
<frewsxcv> paroneayea: Which day are you speaking?
<paroneayea> friday I think
<paroneayea> let me see the schedule
<paroneayea> http://www.oscon.com/oscon2012/public/schedule/detail/23987
<paroneayea> yup, friday at 11AM
<paroneayea> well we're just about at the end of this meeting  [12:01]
<paroneayea> there was that lull for a while, but it feels like things are
             picking up... it would be good if we could do a release at the
             end of this month :)
<paroneayea> and if we can get plugins and the basics of theming in
<paroneayea> that's 2 great reasons for a release!  [12:02]
<frewsxcv> :)
<paroneayea> alright all, I'm going to kill the "logging" now
<paroneayea> thanks everyone!
<paroneayea> and happy hacking :)
<paroneayea> and all other contributing too :)  [12:03]
<paroneayea> ============
<paroneayea> END LOGGING!
<paroneayea> ============
